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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:07 am 
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
I need the contempory taxonimy for this Mammillaria heyderi v heyderi forma bullingtoniana
rescued from limestone area just southeast of Tucson AZ on a riparian flat.
One of the local wisemen gave me Mammillaria heyderi v. bullingtoniana. I have not been able to verify that as an accepted variety but have seen it as a form of heyderi.
The New Cactus Lexicon is too vauge for me to make a conclusion.
I'll post a larger than usual image for scrutiny. It is NOT a M. macdougalii!!!!
14 cm diameter, 8 cm tall, 11-12 radials, one central.
Thank you for any verifiable info.
Off to a Rescued Plant Sale :D :D :D
Enjoy your day,
AZED
Attachment:
M heydrei bul.jpg
M heydrei bul.jpg [ 1.01 MiB | Viewed 144 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:27 am 
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How can you say that it's not M. macdougalii when you don't even know which classification you're following? A number of authors would call this M. macdougalii. Benson would probably have called it M. gummifera v macdougalii.

M. heyderi v bullingtoniana is a published name, obviously not present in the NCL. It would be distinguished from v heyderi by having fewer and thicker radial spines (typically 12 or less vs typically more than 12 for v heyderi) and a generally larger size. Authors recognising this variety would generally also not recognise var heyderi as occurring in Arizona. M. heyderi would be clearly distinguished from M. macdougalii by flowers and fruits, although the gross appearance can be similar. It would be interesting to see the flowers on your plant.

The NCL groups these Mammillarias as follows:
M. heyderi ssp heyderi
M. heyderi ssp gaumeri
M. heyderi ssp gummifera
M. heyderi ssp hemispherica
M. heyderi ssp macdougalii
M. heyderi ssp meiacantha

Under this scheme, ssp heyderi is generally not considered to occur in Arizona and plants such as yours would be called ssp macdougalii.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Ed,
FYI Mamm. heyderi v. bullingtoniana is described in Cac.Succ.J.US 48(3): 138.1976 by Castetter, Piers & Schwerin.

Jordi

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:58 am 
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Ian,
I am gathering info to answer your comment.

I'm not sure I understand "How can you say that it's not M. macdougalii when you don't even know which classification you're following?"

Benson is ancient history. M. heydreri has been looked at as late as 1998 by Hartman, R. L. & B. E. Nelson.

Later today I should have the info compiled to reply.
Enjoy,
AZED

Jordi,
Thanks Sir.
ED

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:51 am 
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Location: Tucson, AZ
Hi Ed, check out Cacti of the Trans Pecos and Adjacent Areas. I tend to agree with their description. If your plant does not have yellow flowers then I would say bullingtoniana also.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tix9He ... gQ6AEwADgK

Hope this helps you.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not sure I understand "How can you say that it's not M. macdougalii when you don't even know which classification you're following?"


Simples. Very likely the same plant would be given two different names by two different authors. In this case the same plant has certainly been given different names by different authors. Which one you use will depend on your own needs and opinions, and you will pick one of the available classifications to match.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Thanks Rob and Ian,
This plant will be opening soon and even though it is not absolute the macdougalii I know in the Catalina Mountains all bloom yellow. I have seen at least 200 of them. This plant looks like it might have white blooms. That I have not seen before. It was rescued above 5000 ft. in the Santa Catalina's
With so many authors using different classifications and recognizing the plants as they see fit it is up for grabs in my book. Matt Johnson works with them much more than I do and he claims that the differences are very obvious when dealing with them frequently. As with many plants with a large range of genus what is more a continuum of the original is common rather than a speciation is what I see.
I think I wrote what I meant to but if I didn't I'm sure you know what I'm saying. I think.
Happy Spring,
AZED

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ArizonaEd--Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society-- www.tucsoncactus.org


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:13 am 
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Do post some flower closeups. And if you can persuade it to generate fruit, that would be just fascinating. Maybe you have some M. heyderi and M. macdougalii you can tickle it with?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:47 am 
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Ian,
No mates for it but I havested the fruit last year and it is BRIGHT RED!!!!! Hmmmmm.
Gave the seed to Matt Johnson and he will have mucho mates. He specializes in Texas and Chuhuahua Desert limestone lovers and legumes.
Off to the mountains,
AZED

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ArizonaEd--Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society-- www.tucsoncactus.org


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